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Again, which memory of Ted Kennedy are we trying to honor with naming a health care “reform’ bill after him? Would it be his chronic alcoholism? His driving ability? His willingness to claim the moral high ground when he had no such standing in his own personal history? He was a roach. It was the ultimate disgrace to American politics that he sat on the judiciary committee. What would happen to the average American were he to get liquored up, drive a car off a bridge, kill woman with whom he was likely having an illicit tryst and then fail to report the crime?
And speaking of the average Americans… if the health care reform plan is so great, why are members of Congress and the President not charter members of the great undertaking? Odd that public officials are not required to utilize the “public option” they keep telling us is so great. If politicians had to play by the same rules and use the same services as average citizens, health care, medicare and social security would be fixed within a month.
Every time a liberal complains about the No Child Left Behind program and suggests that GW Bush ruined education with the bill remind that person that Ted Kennedy, wrote it and sponsored it.
As for Ted Kennedy; bury the dead. They stink up the place.
Kevin, I sincerely hope that you find help for your displaced anger which may be depression. I wish you well.
Well, H… as you feel you must play cyber-psychologist after your three credits at community college…I should point out that my anger is not displaced, but overt. I am indeed angry that anyone, much less those who pretend to report the truth, would elevate Ted Kennedy beyond the level of human excrement.
I have pointed out before that I trust no politicians and believe all have abandoned the idea of public service in favor of self-service. Kennedy raised that to an art form while at the same time ignoring any rules or conventions held by decent people. He is one of the few people I know of who have broken all 10 Commandments and still been elected and re-elected to public office.
The Senate Ethics Committee that routinely dismissed charges against Kennedy was and still is a sham. That committee should be made up of citizens who don’t have to worry about retribution from rogue Senators and their influential families.
If Ted Kennedy is your Messiah, go wait by his tomb and see what that gets you. A tomb, by the way that is taking up space that could be occupied by brave men or women who gave the ultimate sacrifice in service of their nation. Kennedy served in the Army because he got caught cheating on test at Harvard. He spent his time in Paris and earned none of the awards currently required for entry into Arlington. He was the drunken brother of two slain politicians, nothing more. How different would are national psyche be if John Kennedy had lived to be caught in bed with Marilyn Monroe?
H, you seem to be a socialist, why don’t you pay my bills for me?
So if anyone who attempts to go into public service is not to be trusted and only out for themselves, is the Constitution garbage? If we can’t have elected officials represent us, what do you recommend? You’re not just being cynical, you’re being ridiculous.
Kennedy was a great legislator.
Disagreeing with you doesn’t make someone a socialist. You act as if claiming someone is a socialist is all it takes to discount their opinion.
What form of government do you believe in? It can’t be representative democracy, because you hate elected officials.
How do you make the jump from mistrust of elected officials to declaring the Constitution garbage? That’s like asking, “Do you ride the bus or pack a lunch?”
If our elected officials paid attention to the Constitution and our appointed judiciary demanded that all officials followed the Constitution we would be better off.
Clearly you don’t understand that the Constitution is a framework… a foundation, but the form of representative republic so outlined has been displaced by a bureaucracy, where officials who were never elected and are thus not subject to the will of the voters have tremendous power. But that is off topic.
I believe in a representative republic, made up of a union of free and independent states, where a system of checks and balances controls those who would attempt to control us. Specifically, the Senate, House and Judicial ethics committees should be independent and called, like a grand jury, of random citizens. Having Senators vote to control each other is like having them vote for their own pay raises. They will abuse the power. When elected officials finally show they can be trusted, and submit to independent oversight, my distaste of their kind will end. Until then, I look at them all as potential criminals, but I also remember that our elected potential criminals, with all their faults, make up the best government on the planet. I have lived, worked and fought in places that make our politicians/criminals look like choirboys. So even though I complain, I know we have the best of the currently used governments. But it could be better.
You strike me as a young guy… one who never had to deal with any hardship… one who always knew that mommy and daddy would be there and if something happened, someone would come fix it. Sadly, that is not the way the world should work. Each individual should work for himself and be held responsible and accountable. If you don’t work. You don’t eat. It’s pretty simple.
Your statement that Ted Kennedy was great legislator needs some attribution. Really… if you pretend to be a journalist, at least pretend that you have researched ALL the facets of Kennedy’s time in office. He may have shepherded some landmark liberal legislation…but none of it helped improve our economy or standard of living, it all put us where we are today. Sure, he got behind the MLK push, only because it made good headlines and would direct the spotlight away from criminal and moral issues. He was a bad man from start to finish.
And finally yes, all it takes for me to discount someone’s opinion is the stain of socialism on their character. This is a capitalist nation built on individual effort. I should not be paying for someone else. It only encourages them to be lazy. Ask the people of Cuba how great their socialist revolution has served their needs?
You really are beginning to show yourself as someone with no life experience, who believes government handouts, not hard work, will solve problems.
Well if anyone that runs for office cannot be trusted (as is your opinion), what good is having elected officials as called for by the Constitution? How you don’t see the relation between having elected officials and the Constitution is baffling.
If you want random citizens running the country, you’d need to get rid of the Constitution. Did you forget the Founders mistrusted the public, which is why we have things like the Electoral College? We say that’s wrong, but most people don’t even care about democracy or government. We couldn’t have random people govern because most simply don’t care.
Why is it that a young person who hasn’t had problems isn’t credible if he supports helping those in need? Wouldn’t my judgement be more biased if I was old, jobless, and in need? It just doesn’t seem like a solid criticism. You end by saying the way the world should work. which is subjective. People have different ideas of how the world should work, and I think humans should help humans. You think humans should help themselves. Neither of us are likely to change.
We disagree on the impact of Kennedy’s legislation. Also, it is obvious you are going to hate him regardless of what I say.
I didn’t say it was actual socialism, I said it was you calling someone a socialist. Those are two incredibly different things. I doubt anyone on here advocates state control over every facet of business.
As of today, I have twenty-five years of life experience. Each millisecond everyone lives is life experience. This experience has led me to believe in working hard to help people.
Adam, do you believe in working hard to help anyone who actually needs help, or are you like most liberals who seem to be ready and willing to help anyone who just doesn’t feel like working harder or making a sacrifice here and there to better their lives? I would bet that there are a ton of uninsured people out there who have cable tv, internet, xboxes, and countless other things they don’t need. If somebody is honestly doing their best, living with as little as possible and still can’t get by, then sure, the government should be willing to offer temporary assistance in certain areas, assuming that the government has the means to do so. Right now, everyone wants to have it all, without the work it takes to get it all.
The American dream of a place where you could work hard and build the life you dream of is dead. Now everyone wants everything they see on tv or in magazines and they want it right now. If they can’t afford it, the government should get it for them. It’s sick and guys like you are making it worse. Let people who lack insurance give up the things they don’t need before the rest of us pick up the bill for them.
Well said Adam. You have the abilility to lead a discussion without anger. I know it must be difficult not to retaliate; this demonstrates your professionalism and maturity. Thank you for your time and energy on this blog. You give people the chance to voice their opinions and hopefully to learn from each other.
Enjoy the milliseconds.
Ray, I’m not sure where your assumptions come from.
Even if there exists the lazy beneficiary of government programs that conservatives hate so much, it is helpful to consider that person likely has children.
Thank you, H. I do my best. A huge reason I continue to do this is that it is helpful to deal with the extreme branches of the opposite party. Knowing and understanding the people with the opposite view is only helpful in understanding the way people work.
Adam, I didn’t say random citizens should run the country. I said members of the ethics committees should be chosen at random so they have no connection to the people on trial.
But more to the point… common citizens should and run the county. You see, ANYONE who meets the age and citizenship requirements can run for office. And the idea of citizen service is great… but has for the most part been abandoned and replaced by something of a class struggle. That will be difficult to overcome but I never said we should abandon the constitution.
I have lived in places where dictators and warlords ruled. In many cases they started their consolidation of power by promising the populace that strong government would provide for the needs of the people. Once the citizens accepted their role as wards of the state, the state continued to take and take until all the people were oppressed. If those citizens had refused the “help” of the government and chosed to work hard to build their own lives they would have preserved their freedom and been able to keep the rewards of their hard work. That is what I want for America.
And yes, your inexperience leaves you at a disadvantage. You need to see the end results of the paths you are suggesting. You need to sit in a waiting room of Portugese Hospital while a woman dies waiting for care. You need to stand in an African village watching children beg for food because the government has taken the harvest for redistribution to soldiers fighting in the north. You need to walk through the old Soviet-style housing of the former East Germany…The government will provide…but private enterprise is ALWAYS a better option. And individual responsiblity is the key to success in life. You cherish things you work for more than things you are given… American public housing projects are proof of that.
But you are right about one thing… I will never say Ted Kennedy was a good man…We are better off without him. And as proof of that, his last effort was to attempt to change state law so his ideology could continue after his death. That law has worked fine for decades… no need to change it because Ted is dead.
Unfortunately, this great country has millions of people who are filled with hate and anger — like Ray and Kevin. And fortunately, this country has millions of people like you, Adam, who not only love your country but love the PEOPLE of the country as well.
Senator Kennedy and retired Admiral Sestak (now a Democratic US Congressman from PA) became committed to health care for all of our people when their children had cancer. Admiral Sestak described the horror of overhearing the debate as to whether a 6 year old boy with cancer would be allowed treatment because his working poor family had no health insurance. Admiral Sestak’s 3 years old child with brain cancer was treated and survives to this day. Senator Kennedy told of a trial treatment for his son (12 years old with leg cancer) which was so successful that the trial was discontinued leaving those children without insurance no hope for the continuation of the treatment which was now available but would cost tens of thousands of dollars.
I guess that would not have bothered Ray and Kevin one bit.
Having been raised a Christian with years of Sunday School, Bible School and Church Camp at Lake Poinsett, the lesson that touched my life most profoundly is Matthew 25, verse IV — The Judgment of the Nations when people will be separated (like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats) for eternal salvation. I think I can quote most of it from memory.
“For I was hungry, and you gave Me someting to eat; thirsty and you gave Me drink, naked and you clothed Me, sick and you visited Me. Truly, I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me. Truly, I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.”
Fortunately, this great religion of love for our fellow man has been the foundation of our country. In 1965 universal health care was given to the elderly, I hope our tradition of concern for “even the least of these” will be extended to children, the working poor, the poor and those with pre-existing conditions.
For many years, Senator Kennedy (who also loved Matthew 25) worked for universal health care — now we must take up the banner and pass legislation to join all the other civilized nations of the world who believe health care is a universal human right.
for comments 11 12 13 finally some people with common sense and some compasion unlike OTHER people on this blog, keep up the good work adam.
Neither Senator Kennedy nor Admiral Sestak had to work within a “public option” for their situation… As I have said before when congress has to have the same health care and retirement plan they offering the rest of the country, we will all have a suitable plan.
As a cancer survivor myself (B-cell non hodgkin’s lymphoma) I am acutely aware of how our medical system, health insurance system and payment plans work. Was I lucky enough to have good insurance, or did I work hard to get educated and maintain a good job that assists me with the purchase of good insurance? I think the latter.
Handouts encourage people to remain lazy.
And for the record Kennedy’s son had bone cancer and his leg was amputated. If ANYONE could have used his influence to get a child into a special trial that was working “so well…” it would have been Ted Kennedy. Your argument doesn’t wash.
And while you are beating the bible… find me a passage in there that says you must work for yourself. I’m sure there is at least one.
“All other civilized nations in the world…” Please. You live in one of the few nations were you can’t be jailed, tortured or killed for speaking out against the government. Which is why I feel this debate is healthy.
But giving away free health care means that people will just stop working to get it. Just like giving away free food stamps means people will stop saving their money for food. And look how good the AFDC program is working… it offers only minimal assistance to those involved, and still they are too lazy to get of the program. Or simply have more children to get more money. I don’t want minimal health care. I want the best health care. That costs money, so I am willing to work for it. But I’m not willing to work and pay so others can sit on their butts and reap the benefits of my labor.
Everyone industrialized, wealthy country offers their citizens health care. Regardless of what scary commercials say, the vast majority of their citizens love it. Tell me, are Canada, Britain, scary socialist Sweden, France, and on and on and on all horrible countries? I don’t think so. The just seem to care about the health and lives of their citizens. Why would you stop working because you have health care? It doesn’t make any sense. You still have rent/mortgages, the need to eat, possibly a family to provide for. It just seems like your arguments are unrelated to the topic.
And by the way, as for the health care of Congress members: http://public-healthcare-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/health_care_for_the_us_congress
I guess the government can pay for Grassley’s plan, just so long as it doesn’t pay for anyone who needs it.
Kevin, you missed the point. Kennedy and Sestak feel most fortunate to have the resources for medical treatment and want the same for others. I heard Senator Spector of PA explain that he, like all other federal employees, has a choice of plans to choose from. As far as experiemental treatment is concerned, no one knows whether it will work or not work. Kennedy’s son was lucky that his worked.
You make me appreciate my successful and well traveled friends who believe that America must invest in the health and education of their citizens to remain a great power as well as their belief that health care is a human right.
All of Western Europe has free health care and they have not stopped working. Many of our friends tell stories of getting sick in Europe — all have positive remarks about their treatment. My husband had to be taken to a Stockholm clinic late one Sunday night — root canal work was begun which was continued in Oslo and Bergen. We were grateful and knew that tourists in the US would most likely not get that kind of treatment particularly late at night.
Kevin, you sound like a bitter, angry and hateful person. As I said, you make me appreciate my friends who are kind people — people who care about their fellowman.
Please post the tax rates, GNP and unemployment figures from the nations you mentioned.
JJC: Great, we each have a story about how socialized medicine works or doesn’t. Not the point.
The question is simple:
Do you believe people should be required to work for what they get?
You see, in order for anyone to get anything someone has to work. Under the liberal plan, the fact that I work harder than someone else means nothing. We still both get the same benefit. Therefore what is my incentive to work harder? Socialism destroys productivity. Where do you think the good Lutheran work ethic game from? I think it came from the idea that if you work more you get more and you can make your life better through hard work.
Take two people, put them in a cucumber patch and tell them to pick cucumbers for 8 hours. At the end of 8 hours, the cucumbers will be divided equally. Who will pick more cucumbers?
Take the same two people in the same patch and tell them “At the end of 8 hours you keep what you picked and can sell it, eat it or save it for winter.” Do that and you will see real motivation and you will increase the desire to excel. The first situation will drive people to pick fewer cucumbers.
Now apply it to health care. Tell two people, you get free health care. If you get sick, don’t worry, it’s covered.
Or tell the same two people, if you get sick you will have to pay for your own care. Who has more incentive to live a healthy life? As for health insurance, remind them, without insurance you can’t pay your bills or get care. To get insurance you need to work hard, stay employed, be productive. Who has the greater incentive?
If the problem is that health insurance companies are screwing the American people, the answer is to regulate those companies so they can’t dump patients when they get sick, or discriminate against patients with certain conditions, etc. And you can do that without spending my tax dollars to treat someone who has smoked for 40 years.
Just because I don’t want to give away my money does not make me a bitter and hateful person. If it was just that simple, well then you could cure my bitterness by sending me $1,000. I’m sure it would help my situation and if you just got all of your loving, caring friends to pitch in (call it a health care tax, they’ll pay it) you could give me that money and make me all better.
That’s what you’re saying: Just give money away and it makes everyone feel better. It will heal the sick and give the rest of us a warm fuzzy feeling by how much we helped. So send me the $1,000 and I will stop being bitter and you all will be on your way to understanding the miracle of socialized medicine.
Wow. If I had known it was this easy, I’d have become a socialist long ago.
Oh yeah… the Suite 101 story… How about this… we take away the FEHBP from congress and make them use the exact same plan they are offering all of us. See if your elected officials will go for that? Ask them?
There is no way in HELL the US taxpayers could ever afford to pay for an FEHBP style program for every citizen. Let’s expand that to 300 million people… and I’m sure you’d want to cover illegal alien… and see how fast we are taxed into the poor house.
Pay as you go. Work for what you get.
Haven’t had much time lately, but good work Kevin, awesome comments.
As for the commentors on 11 and 12, I think it’s more loving to want to see our nation sustained for years and generations to come rather than spend ourselves into the ground now and let our kids find a way to fix it later. WE ALREADY HAVE NO MORE MONEY!
Haven’t had much time lately, but good work Kevin, awesome comments.
As for the commentors on 11 and 12, I think it’s more loving to want to see our nation sustained for years and generations to come rather than spend ourselves into the ground now and let our kids find a way to fix it later. WE ALREADY HAVE NO MORE MONEY! I can’t stress that enough. The problem now is that we’re getting closer and closer to the point where we can’t borrow any more money. That’s not even as scary as when we get to the point where we are expected to pay back what we’ve already borrowed. How is this insanity loving and caring? If we don’t stop now and pay down our national debt and then truly pay as we go, our nation will fall. That’s all there is to it to all you bleeding heart liberals who believe that money grows on trees and it’s hateful to not give everything to everyone whether they or the government can afford it or not.
I know part of that posted twice, sorry Adam, my mistake, wanted to acknowedge it before you enjoy the observation.
I will bet that neither Ray nor Kevin questioned the huge debt we would incur when we invaded and bombed Iraq. Stieglitz, the Nobel prize winning economist, documented in his book that Iraq and health care for the vets who served there will cost US taxpayers 3 trillion dollars. Had any of us opposed that war, I am quite sure Kevin and Ray would have attacked us with their hate and labeled us unpatriotic. For Kevin and Ray, war is good — universal health care is bad.
Do I even need to start anything anymore…Ray and Kevin are taking care of it for me.
Kevin, A psychiatrist would charge much more $1000 to help you find a way out of your anger. To raise enough for your care would require a town wide fund raiser. The bakery has a poster to raise funds for a family in which the father (41 years old) of 3 lost his carpentry job and then his health insurance. He was hit with leukemia and money has run out. Does it make sense that this man die for lack of treatment and leave 3 young children bereft?
Cannot this superpower of a country save a 41 year old man with leukemia?
Investing in the health and education of our citizens (particularly our children) is the best way to maintain our technological superiority according to Andrew Grove, retired CEO of INTEL (biggest chip maker in the world). While being interviewed by Charley Rose he spoke with great urgency about the need for investment in health and education — warning that our standard of living depends upon our tecnological superiority which he fears we are in danger of losing.
He concluded that Americans who are healthy and well trained contribute to the success of our country while those who are not can drain our society. It is penny wise and pound foolish not to invest in the health and education of our citizens — our standard of living depends upon it.
Ray, Did you protest when Bush — looking at a big national debt — gave 2 big tax cuts to the rich? Did you protest when Bush (while inheriting a surplus from Clinton) did not put that surplus toward paying off our debt but gave each tax player a check? Did you protest when Bush started a second war in the Middle East which cost trillions, but rather than asking Americans to pay for those wars put in on the credit card for the children and grandchildren to pay? Did you protest when Bush refused to consider a limit ($5,000,000) on the repeal of the estate tax? Did you protest when Bush gave a trillion dollar bailout (TARP) to the very financial institutions that he failed to regulate?
I highly doubt that you protested any of those things except, of course, health care for Americans.
Kevin, You’re theory that if people were given universal health care they would not work is so stupid that it didn’t deserve a response. But I couldn’t resist anyway.
Japan has universal health care, and yet death from too much work is so commonplace in Japan that they have a word for it — karoshi.
Kevin, you need to read more.
Kevin, Your theory that universal health care will not be an incentive to live a healthy life style is so stupid that is doesn’t deserve a response. But I cannot resist.
Canada, New Zealand, Finland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark rank tops in physical fitness, and they all have socialized medicine.
The one country (the USA) that does not have socialized medicine is listed at the top for obesity.
Kevin, you need to read more.
To Jade Ford,
come on, do you really think that I changed how I think when Obama took office? I opposed Bush on many issues. The tax thing is tricky, I support a flat tax. Many liberals including Adam won’t debate such a thing because they have nothing to say that could oppose it without sounding like socialists who want to spread the wealth around. A flat tax would use a flat percentage sales tax, this would tax us all the same. The rich would still pay more because they’d be buying more expensive stuff, it would also make possible taxing of illegal aliens and even tourists, more money in, less debt, fair system.
The only way I’d oppose tax cuts for the rich would be if those cuts resulted in them paying a smaller percentage of their income in taxes than a poor person. Even under Bush’s system, the rich pay far more.–By the way, I am not rich, far from it, but that doesn’t make me think that those making more money should pay for things for me.
Iraq is touchy too. The thing in Iraq is that even the majority of liberals supported it at the time, including Hillary Clinton. I did oppose going to war without money in the bank to pay for it. I also very much opposed Bush’s bailouts, just as much as I opposed Obama’s bailouts. Bush was not a conservative, so you can take any shots at him you want on his economic policies, and I’ll probably agree with you. The thing is that even though he was wrong, that was then, this is now. What happened years or even days ago doesn’t matter, we can’t change that. We can change what’s happening today and tomorrow and next week, next month, etc.
I think you’re off base when you take the shot at him for not regulating financial institutions. Regulation isn’t the answer. I would argue that organizations like ACORN had a bigger role in the financial problem. They are the ones who pressured banks to give bad loans to people who couldn’t pay them because everyone should have everything no matter whether they can pay for it or not, right!
Clinton was no hero. He had Newt Gingrich blocking tons of spending and his massive health bill that would have cost us a fortune was shot down. He would have spent far more money had he not lost the House and Senate after 2 years, which Obama will probably have to deal with also.
Oh, and I’d rather have Bush giving tax payers checks than watch Obama write checks to auto companies (some of which aren’t even American!).
I’m a conservative, I oppose liberal republicans the same as liberal democrats.
i think im on ray’s side. we do whats right, not what a group is doing. Obama, Bush, Clinton, just no. c’mon. Ronald Reagan was good president. he was a Democrat to start with, but then switched to the Republican party. we need a president like him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan
thar ya go.