There’s been a lot of talk about the health care summit set to take place on February 25. On the surface, it looks like an attempt to have a televised, public forum for Republicans to discuss their ideas with President Obama. A public conversation with Republicans seems like a good idea since there have been complaints about partisanship and closed door dealings (whether or not they are warranted is questionable).
But that’s the obvious/not paranoid way of looking at the health care summit. If you truly know what’s happening, you know it’s a secret trap being set by Obama to ruin Republicans. It will be accomplished by… um… getting them to openly state and discuss their ideas with President Obama with ample time to prepare? This hardly sounds like some killer trap, but guys like Lindsey Graham and John Boehner aren’t so sure.
I guess maybe they are just setting up an excuse. If it doesn’t go well, they can just claim they were trapped.
Jon Stewart has a nice little clip about the “trap,” and John Oliver also filed a report on health care. He was discussing government-mandated health care with some RNC folks attending their meeting in Hawaii. He had already discussed wasteful spending with them as they remained in the dark about the irony of having a ton of people fly to Hawaii to discuss wasteful spending, and they were no less in the dark when discussing Hawaii’s health care plan.
You see, since 1974 Hawaii has required employers to provide health care benefits for all employees working 20 hours a week. Everything in Hawaii is expensive, except health care, which is nearly the lowest in the country.
John Oliver hears the regular talking points from some RNC attendees and asks a few questions. They did not disappoint. I’ll let you watch Jon on the trap and John on Hawaii:
| The Daily Show With Jon Stewart | Mon – Thurs 11p / 10c | |||
| The Apparent Trap | ||||
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How funny was it when that lady says some ridiculous platitude and John shuts it down?
Enjoy one of the better Moments of Zen ever:
| The Daily Show With Jon Stewart | Mon – Thurs 11p / 10c | |||
| Moment of Zen – Dog the Bounty Hunter on Health Care | ||||
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Adam Feser
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I know the conservatives will get off topic and accuse us of considering Comedy Central to be journalism… but dagnabit, that john Oliver piece really was journalism. It was one of the best juxtapositions of practical policy reality with empty wishful-thinking rhetoric I’ve seen. See also the New York Times article from October 2009 that says Oliver wasn’t exaggerating in his portrayal of how the Hawaiian system works.
Wow, you got dagnabit and juxtapositions into the same thought. Michner would be impressed. . .as am I. Man crush on John Stewart is gettin’a bit creepy though.
He was lauding John Oliver, not Jon Stewart. If anyone is guilty of an unhealthy man crush on Stewart, it’s probably me.
Is the idea of people against wasteful spending taking a jet to Hawaii any worse than Obama taking Airforce One to plant a tree on Earth Day last year? Just wondering. I guess they didn’t need any new trees at the White House, or anywhere else in Washington D.C. for that matter. Don’t get me wrong, a trip to Hawaii is wasteful unless it’s for something that absolutely has to be done, but I’d be pissed if I was worried about “global warming” or “climate change” and then watched the president take a jet to plant a tree.
You’re probably right but the ceremonial aspect of the presidency is something that has always existed and always will. I’m also sure the irony wouldn’t be lost on Obama as it clearly has been on these folks.
The difference between Obama’s plan and Hawaii’s law is that the business pays for it not the state. I would possibly be in support of a program similar to that. It would require people to work to get coverage…
You realize the public option isn’t in the Senate bill, right? There are rumblings of it coming back today, but it seems highly unlikely.
If Obama didn’t see the irony when he did it, he’s not likely to.
He could have done the ceremony in the lawn at the White House and used it to encourage Americans to plant new trees in their yards, seems like it could have been even more effective that way.
I’d agree with you Dr, but it would be very painful for businesses, especially if it applied to all employees working 20 hours. Imagine what it would cost to go to the grocery store.
Why do you think it costs sooo much to live or visit Hawaii…
Exactly Dr. Now you have to ask the left why higher prices would be good in a recession. I’m sure Adam will have some sort of reasoning for it.
Seriously? Isn’t it obvious? They’re far away from everything, so everything has to be flown or shipped. It’s not like I’m making something up.
So the higher prices have absolutely nothing to do with businesses having to pay for health coverage for every employee working more than 20 hours per week? If the cost of providing that converage isn’t being added to the cost to consumers, then where is the money coming from? Don’t forget, health supplies and medication have to be flown or shipped in as well.
Do you believe that adding such costs to American businesses nation-wide would actually help the unemployment rate? It would be terrible, jobs would be lost and economy would be much worse than it is now.
Do you have a crystal ball? Their unemployment rate is below the national average.
Never a mention of the millions of uninsured, only excuses not to insure them.
I am going open up another can of worm’s….mandatory drug testing for anyone that takes the public option…
The public option is actually gaining some steam again.
What penalties are you looking for? Kick them off the option? Why should someone who smokes weed be kicked off when and alcoholic or chain cigarette smoker or red meat and cheese lover wouldn’t be?
Mainly because pot is illegal. I know, it’s not a law that a lot of people like, but it is still a law.
I heard something today that isn’t rocket science. Famed liberal Colin Cowherd called it ‘free health care’ when talking about the freebies you get in Canada today on his radio show while talking to a caller. The caller, from Canada said that 48% of his hard earned money went to taxes. Almost half of your paycheck. That is a lot of damn money.
I do okay now with money, but if I lose another 25% to taxes for these new programs, I will go broke.
I think that’s the idea Dr. If you’re broke, you need the government for more than just healthcare. Socialism is the end goal, whether they admit it or not, in fact some of them may not even know it.
Why is it that some people think the the government owes them?
good question. . .Adam?
Dr, feel free to read the actual bill and see what’s going to happen to your taxes.
Socialism is not the end goal.
I think health care is a right. I think people have a right to life. I think health care is a part of that. It’s not what the government owes me, it’s what humans can do to keep other humans alive and healthy. I know I must sound like a crazy socialist, but that’s the way I see it.
You really want to open that right to life can of worms Adam. That comment made me throw up in my mouth.
Why? People have a right to life. That’s my explanation.
I never thought you of all people would use the expression of right to life…
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
Why would I not use it. Of course every person has a right to life. That’s why I don’t believe in unjust war or the death penalty. Just because a group that has different beliefs than me has hijacked the phrase and changed the meaning doesn’t mean the right to life stops existing for people.
I can’t believe you like that quote Adam. I mean, the word “Creator” in caps and all certainly doesn’t support evolution or Darwin’s theories. You’re definition of “right to life” is sick. I can’t believe that everybody deserves healthcare, but babies don’t have the right to be born.
Socialism is the end goal Adam. You may not see it that way, but when you support people like Obama and Pelosi, whether you mean to or not, you’re supporting changes toward socialism.
We have the rights listed, regardless of whether you think they are given by a creator or naturally ours. It’s not the point of what I said.
We’ve been over it. We have a different idea. But we obviously agree uninsured Americans are humans. Think about the point of what I said as opposed to focusing on a phrase that has been adopted by an issue campaign.
No one has made any mention as to whether or not I answered the question. The topic was instantly changed.
Back that statement up. Obama seems invested in making sure the private sector succeeds, and he seems all too willing to make concessions to them. Just saying someone wants socialism doesn’t make it true. It’s a ridiculous, alarmist, conspiratorial claim.
The whole idea of expanded welfare programs moves toward socialism. Basic Medicaid in itself is not socialism, but expanding to a universal public option is very much a move toward socialism. Your logic says that healthcare is a right, well how about food, is it a right to have food? Should the government take over food distribution and put in place a rationing system? I mean that as a serious question to you. You could say that having a job is a right, and then should the government issue jobs to the people? You could say that in order to fully have access to the rights of food, healthcare, and jobs, a person needs a car or public transportation, should the government provide means of transportation? Healthcare reform on its own is not socialism, but the public option leans that way and many believe that it would destroy private insurance leading to government-run universal healthcare.
Of course Obama wants businesses to succeed, he needs tax revenue to create something like a public option, he knows that if he keeps spending in the red like he has been he’ll be out on his rear end in 2012.
Why is Medicaid not socialism but a public option (option) is? Is every industrialized nation in the world socialist?
Do you think it isn’t a right? Should we let people starve in our country where we waste enough food to feed everyone several times over? And we do have food stamps.
You could say a lot of things are rights, but they aren’t agreed upon, like the right to life. It’s irrelevant.
There should be and in many places is public transportation.
If he wants business to succeed, he isn’t a socialist. That’s the end of that debate. How easy.
I think we should all have the right to go out and have a level playing field in which to compete for jobs and work for what we want and need. I am not opposed to very limited programs to provide assistance in basic needs like food, medical treatment, clothing, shelter, etc., but only when such programs are very limited and designed strictly to get people by until they can improve their situations. These programs should not be designed for long-term use and abuse and should not provide a level of support that allows people to become more comfortable on them than off of them. These programs should also not be done with debt spending.
The difference between a public option and Medicaid is simple. Medicaid is designed for people who can’t afford to buy insurance or pay for medical treatment. The rules have become too relaxed and need to be updated, but it’s not the same as a public option. A public option opens up government programs for anybody, whether they need such programs or not. Knowing our government they would not charge anybody properly for the program and would create massive new debt. I realize that it’s an “option” Adam, but I fully believe that it would drive private insurance companies, who unlike the government can’t spend endless amounts of money in the red, out of business, leading to a socialist universal health plan.
He wants businesses to succeed for now, because the type of “change” Obama wants doesn’t happen over night, unless it’s done Mao-Tse-Tung style, which Anita Dunn would have no problem with. I think that Obama was all too happy to see the government take a large piece of General Motors and would probably like to see more of that happen. I think he enjoys seeing the banks beg for bailouts and would like to see more of it. I think he enjoys seeing people live on the government. I believe that Obama really believes that the government is the answer for everything and should have more extensive control over our nation.
Free public transportation? Government provided public transportation?
This is pointless. If you believe Obama wants the government to take over business without any evidence but what your gut or Glenn Beck says, why am I even debating it? It’s pointless.
Anita Dunn is the one who openly declared that she’s a fan of Mao-Tse-Tung, and what exactly did he do Adam? Scary that a close friend and advisor for the president holds such beliefs.
My gut? Is it my gut telling me that Washington has taken a large stake in GM? Is it my gut telling me that Washington is bailing out and putting regulations on banks? Is it my gut telling me that Washington passed new laws on credit card companies telling them how to do business?
Washington is taking more and more control all the time. They aren’t doing it in big steps or with sudden power grabs, they’re doing it slowly so that guys like you don’t start to see that guys like me aren’t crazy. I never said that Obama and his pals were doing it quickly, only that they’re doing it. I don’t expect us to be a socialist country by 2012, but I do expect a lot of damage to be done by then.
Oh Glenn Beck, taking something out of context and claiming we’re run by commie radicals. Do you honestly think that’s her agenda because of one offhanded line? So you use one line she said to prove she’s a Mao lover, then say Obama is a socialist because of it. Remarkable. If her presence scares you, you are easily frightened.
So in 2012 when we’re not even close to government control of the private sector will you still be trembling in fear of the socialist boogeyman, or will you then realize the invisible enemies Beck battles with are invisible because they’re fictional?
It’s not just Dunn. How about Lloyd’s admiration for Chavez. There are plenty of examples. It’s not Dunn’s presence that scares me, it’s Obama’s presence.
In 2012 I’ll be hoping for a true conservative to turn the big government train around. We need another Reagan, not sure if it will ever happen though.
Ray, I think you are really a socialist and perhaps even a Marxist. I have read posts by you where you quote Jesus and you have said several times that you are a fan of his.
And according to Jesus’ own words he has to be considered a socialist:
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
[From Acts] –sounds a little like Marx, doesn’t it?
If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. [Matthew 19:21]
Therefore, Ray you must be a Socialist and a Marxist; or maybe you are not as much of a Christian as you claim?
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. -MK Gandhi
Wow…Skye…impressive.
Of course, you realize that selling what you have and giving to the poor is charity, where as the government taking and taxing what you have to give it to the poor without your consent is socialism. I wasn’t sure if you understood the difference there. I am all for charity, there is nothing better than people helping eachother out of love and kindness. How you can possibly think that people helping eachother out of love is the same as the government taxing people way out of reason and then creating entitlement programs is beyond me.
The context in Matthew is not what you’d like to make it out to be. The young man Jesus was speaking to stated that he had kept all of the commandments from his youth and asked what more he could do. Jesus said that if he desired to be perfect, then in addition to keeping the commandments he could sell his possessions and follow Him. He didn’t say that everybody should give away everything they own, He said that this man, if he desired to prove his faith should sell what he had and follow Christ. You’re out of context here Skye.
I’d like to know where in Acts you found the first piece, I don’t have time to find it right now, but I’d like to read the rest of the passage you think you’re quoting properly.
Thank you. That was my point exactly. Thanks for agreeing with me.
How are people taxed out of reason? The majority of Americans just got a tax cut. Is it pure greed that enrages millionaires at programs to help the needy?
Also, you want the government to act as Christians and enforce Christian laws, why not this one?
It’s funny you said that, Skye. I just posted my song of the day on facebook. It’s a competition with a friend of mine. I recommended we do a religious Sunday competition, and I posted this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDS00Pnhkqk.
I was just thinking before I came here to check for comments how Jesus would have been called out for socialism by the same people saying we need his influence in government.
Cool song, Adam. Not sure if I had heard that one before or not; pretty timeless isn’t it?
And Ray, why is it that people should have to depend on charity? How about a system that is fair and treats people justly and with dignity? How about health care so people don’t have to rely on charity when times are bad? Because when I look at the greed present everywhere today I don’t think I would want to depend on charity or people’s “love and kindness.” People would starve.
And Reagan, what a disaster. It was his policies of redistributing the wealth (from the middle class and poor) to the wealthy that contributed to many of the problems today. Give to the wealthy and the big corporations and all that wealth will trickle down. What a joke! All that happened was that corporations merged, bought out smaller companies, and that resulted in all the control of the economy in just a few hands. It was definitely “every man for himself” under Reagan. A regressive tax system? No thanks.
When Jesus told the man to give up what he had, He wasn’t creating a law. He was telling the man that if he had truly kept the commandments from his youth, the only way to improve would be to give up what he had and completely follow Christ. It wasn’t a statement telling the man that people should give up what they have to the government, that’s taking it way out of context.
A flat tax would be a system that would be just. A system that doesn’t allow people to do what they want with what they earned isn’t just.
As far as Reagan, he didn’t take anything from the poor or middle class and give it to the rich, he just didn’t believe in taxing people who worked hard for what they had at so much higher rates than everyone else.
That’s one interpretation. It didn’t seem like a way to improve as much as what was necessary to get into heaven, which is impossible if you’re rich. And those Acts verses sound like a description of a hippie commune.
Your flat sales tax idea taxes the poor far more than the wealthy. It is a horrible idea.
You act like all millionaires have worked so much harder than those that struggle to get by. Why is that? Has someone that inherited millions or someone that made good decisions on the stock market worked harder than manual laborers? It’s not always the case, but we too often equate hard work with the richest, when in fact much of the millions is gained on the back of the hard work of others.
It is not impossible for the rich to get into heaven. That’s another example of people taking one or two verses out of context to make the Bible say something that it doesn’t if you’re smart enough to read a little further.
Skye still hasn’t told me where in Acts he found the verses. Perhaps he knows his quote is out of context and doesn’t want to admit it.
I just googled it the Acts verses. It’s Acts 4: 32-37, and Book 2: 44-45 is also of interest.
Why is my interpretation out of context but every interpretation hating on gays so proper? What context do you put that in to change it? What makes your interpretation right and mine wrong? I’m just curious.
I know things can be taken out of context (as with much of the law in both the Bible and Qur’an), but I’m not seeing how this is possible here.
Acts 4:
31: And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
These people were all of one mind according to their belief in God. They had all things in common because of their faith. This was not a case of the government taking something or taxing something or spreading the wealth around. It was a much different situation.
In this case if Skye would have started one verse earlier he would have lost his point. They were filled with the Holy Ghost, not with love for Obama or government.
You conveniently leave out this part:
For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
That quite obviously seems communal.
Skye’s whole point in this was to show a sense of irony. She put those quotes there to show that just because you quote someone doesn’t make you a follower of that person or that you have the same beliefs. Just because Anita Dunn might have used a quote by Mao or mentioned him doesn’t make her or Obama a Communist. Skye has quoted the Dalai Llama–does that make her a Buddhist?
In fact Dunn said she got the quote from Republican strategist Lee Atwater. Karl Rove and Newt Gingrich have also quoted Mao. It looks to me like the entire GOP are a bunch of Communists.
You are missing the point… the difference between the right to healthcare and the right to food and housing is that if I work there’s a good chance I can afford food and housing — and I can split the cost of food among roommates or family. But health insurance can be extremely expensive and I can’t “split” the cost with anyone. And, that’s if I’m lucky enough to even find coverage — if you’ve got pre-existing conditions, you may not be able to find insurance at all. And, here’s the kicker — if you don’t have insurance, or your insurance doesn’t cover your pre-existing condition, you will pay more for health services — since the insurance companies are not negotiating prices for you. Health expenses are the biggest reason for bankruptcy.
Excellent points, Skye and Annie.
Beck can take some small quote and use it to scare people like Ray into believing we’re run by commies, but you must pay attention to context (even if it’s unconvincing) when quoting Acts.
Annie demonstrates just how important this right is.
I can’t even begin to imagine how you guys can compare something done out of faith to government dictated tax and redistribution. How can you compare the apostles to our government? Are you saying that Obama is an apostle of God? The only way your comparison works is if you believe in Obama as your God and therefore are willing to blindly give up your possessions to the government.
I don’t know how to make it any more clear….the Bible passages you quote are examples of people doing something based on their faith, mutual beliefs, and it was done voluntarily. It is nothing like the government saying that you have to give up X% of your income so that they can give it to somebody who makes less than $X as an entitlement. The American government isn’t meant to operate this way.
I don’t know how to make it any more clear, we’re demonstrating how silly it is to judge Anita Dunn based on a throw-away line.
And those verses do sound like a hippie commune.
I find it interesting that when a Republican quotes Mao they’re considered to be a God-fearing American. When Anita Dunn quotes Mao not only is she labeled a Communist, but so is Obama.
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