You also need to be aggressive. If you’re not aggressive, they don’t respect you. If you come from a softer place, if you’re tender, no way. You need to be like a bulldog, and that’s awful, because you feed this idea that women in business have to be super aggressive. That’s not true. We’re like that because we’re forced to be.
It’s so hard for guys here to accept that you [as a woman] are smarter than them, even when the evidence is right there. It’s so hard to find a guy who wants to learn from a woman.
Nora Zamora: Just to clarify: even though I was in a Boys Club [in the US], I was always heard. There might have been some comments and attitudes typical of the 80s and 90s, but I was never spoken over in a boardroom.
In the US, it’s actually other women competing with women [executives]. This environment has turned other women into these sort of “boss bitches.”
In Latin America, when a woman speaks in a boardroom, unless she’s aggressive, borderline rude, she’s not listened to. They’ll talk over her.
In Latin America, when I sit in a boardroom, I know that I’ll have to be stronger than I want to be. Why can’t you be just in your feminine energy? Why do you have to tap into your masculine energy? And even then, it doesn’t go that well. If you’re just a lady, forget it. Unless you have contacts, or are part of the inner circle.
Nathalie Howell: It’s so tiresome. Imagine your job, and to that add a layer of careful thought; thought of everything you’ll be saying, the ways you’ll have to behave, the ways you’ll walk into a room, how you’ll be standing in front of everyone, how you wear your hair, the clothes you’re using, how much skin you’re showing… It’s so tiresome. Everyone is evaluating everything you do; not only the things that matter to your job. You’re always under a microscope.
NSAM: What you describe sounds almost like a cultural clash. As women, what do you have to do in order to thrive, to succeed in these male-dominated environments?
Nora Zamora: I refuse to give up who I am in fashion. I know that I have substantial things to say. When I give a presentation to a group of Latin American businessmen, I actually do the opposite [of toning down my outfit]. I’m professional, but I might look a bit more attractive; I might be a bit more charismatic. Because you have to use what you have, and let’s face it: los hombres ven por los ojos [men look through the eyes].
Usually, my approach consists of looking very professional without toning it down. I have this voice in my head that often tells me to pull my hair back, wear small earrings, dress very demure. But that’s not who I am. I usually dress the way I feel I should for a professional environment. I’m not dressing up as if I was going to a disco. Definitely professional, but feminine. Light colors; maybe a statement piece.
That’s how I go about it in Latin America. I feel like I have to be three times more prepared than a man would—Nora Zamora
I’ve come to the point that I refuse to give up my femininity, and I’m for sure not going to give up my fashion because some boy, or some toxic man with mommy issues doesn’t know how to look at a woman.
What I do is very carefully plan what I’m going to say. When presenting in front of a group of Latino men, you can’t say “uhm”, stutter or look slightly insecure. They’re like hyenas, waiting for the kill. They’re waiting for you to not know, to make a mistake, to contradict you.
I triple check my facts. I make sure that I can back up whatever I’m saying. I’ve grown to not be as aggressive, but I do speak in a more serious tone. I do try to be charismatic, bring jokes into my speech, to get some engagement.
That’s how I go about it in Latin America. I feel like I have to be three times more prepared than a man would. I try to go in with the attitude of “Try me, motherfucker, because I’m ready.”
Nathalie Howell: I walk in thinking that, after the meeting is done, I need them to think I know something they don’t. For me, it’s really important to show lots of data, to be extremely prepared, to use a vocabulary that’s extremely technical, but I usually have to follow up the tech jargon with simple explanations.
Visually, I try to be as intimidating as possible. An advantage I have is that I’m a tall woman. If I wear high heels, I’ll probably stand taller than most people in the room. If I can look at a guy like this [looking down], that’s a win. It’s something I play with. The taller the heels, the taller the ego.
I always wear black, so that helps a lot too. If you see a tall person wearing black, that carries a serious aura. I always wear pants too, and a blazer. Depending on the weather, I’ll wear a turtleneck. I’ll look very serious; the closest I can to “Don’t play with me.”
I also have to be super ready to clap back. Usually, in those meetings, men listen not to understand, but to say something to you. You need to be ready for that…
Now that I say this outloud, it sounds terrible. Instead of just making your point as a professional, you need to be armed to the teeth. We all make mistakes, but if you make a mistake as a woman, that’s the perfect excuse for some men to say “I knew it. She’s too young,” or something like that.
NSAM: You’ve spoken mostly of your interactions with men in Latin American boardrooms. What about other women? Specifically, female leaders.
Nora Zamora: There aren’t that many women executives in Latin American boardrooms, for starters. Latin American women in Latin American boardrooms, through my career in Costa Rica, I’ve seen only two; one in each different company.
From what I’ve seen, some women in Latin American boardrooms –in Costa Rica, specifically–, in order to survive, have to pretend to be silly, dumb and pretty. They might look the part, but when you approach them and talk to them, they’re really smart. They figured out that in order to survive and not live under the pressure of constantly being come after, they need to pretend to be not as smart. In that way, they won’t threaten toxic males.
On the other hand, I used to work with this woman; she had brass balls. She and I were able to achieve a lot together, because I finally felt like I had someone who had my back. We would always argue, but that’s a healthy business relationship. You disagree to create beautiful solutions. She and I had this symbiotic relationship. Long story short: I left. She told me: “Nora, I give it two months before I’m fired. You were the only person here that supported me.” And lo and behold, I left and she was fired in less than two months.
If I can look at a guy like this [looking down], that’s a win. It’s something I play with. The taller the heels, the taller the ego—Nathalie Howell
I try to mentor younger women who I feel are outgoing, who want to go somewhere but don’t know which way. I have tried to have groups of women to talk about their day or their week, and how I can help as a female leader. The problem is that people are so afraid to speak that you’ll hear nothing but crickets.
And not only young women, but also young men who want to be healthy in their masculinity. But they know that if they don’t fit in with the toxic boys, they’re left out. They don’t want to be left out, so they participate. It’s almost like high school.
Nathalie Howell: I’ll talk about my latest experience, which wasn’t in a tech company. I’ve found two kinds of women: one is like me and my peers, who tries to stand out and be as genuine as possible in terms of not giving up, not lowering our heads. We are a minority. Most women I’ve seen in corporate environments lower their heads, try to remain low key. They feel fear.
One of my roles in the last company I worked at was designing workshops. I love workshops because they give a voice to everyone, no matter your role. You give them a post-it, and everyone writes something in it; no matter if it’s the VP or a secretary. And everything is anonymous. It was interesting because so many times, I saw women who were scared of their boss finding out that a specific post-it was theirs. But truly scared. You could see the fear in their eyes. They don’t confront anyone; they will do what the boss wants them to. They just want to survive. If that means not talking, they won’t talk. If that means saying you’re right, even when they know you’re not, so be it.
In big corporations, it is common for quotas to be a thing. They have to hire men and women, 50/50. I’ll say that, a lot of times, that’s just bad for us [women]. I’ve seen women being promoted just because management needed to fill a quota. And they’ll fire them eventually, because they weren’t ready yet for the job. In Costa Rica we say “la quemaron” [they burned her]. Those quotas are a pain in the ass. They’re so fake, and you feel that they’re not genuine.
It’s terrible. You can hear company leadership saying out loud “I need to hire a woman”. Not because she’s good, but because she’s needed to cover the quota. And that feeds into the idea that women are not good at certain jobs.
NSAM: Do you have any advice for young women, or women in general, who are navigating, or plan to navigate corporate environments?
Nora Zamora: Two things. First, be authentic to yourself. Don’t allow yourself to be bullied. Speak your truth and be comfortable in the strength of your healthy femininity. You do not need to be a toxic man in order to be successful. I think we as women are very strong. Find out who you are and then be that person.
Also, prepare yourself. Do your homework. Make sure that you clearly understand what it is that you want to do, what you want to talk about. Stand firm. Don’t look down. Unfortunately, you have to take the punches, but never let them see you sweat. Handle it with grace. In the words of Michelle Obama: when they go low, we go high. Showing elegance and grace in a shitty situation sometimes says more about the type of woman you are and the type of leader you can be.
To younger girls, I would tell them to start saving, so you have some control over your career. Start stashing some cash. When you have some money in the bank, you become less afraid to speak, because if your boss or leader says something, you can just say arrivederci.
Nathalie Howell: I would recommend to be as prepared as possible. You really need to be very good at your job, in order to trust yourself. Because the moment a guy asks you something to put you in a bad position, you need to be ready to answer. Usually, men who try that don’t know what to do when you clap back. They don’t expect a comeback.
Work on your self-trust. No guy will ever have me under his boot. If I find myself in a scenario where I need to quit, I will. A lot of women miss that. Maybe they don’t have enough money saved, or whatever. But you need to trust a lot in yourself, in your capabilities. When they try to put you down, you have to understand that it’s not about you, it’s about them. It’s about them not being polite, about their masculine ego being hurt.
You have to be convinced of your capabilities. No man will ever make me doubt myself. And no woman either, for that matter.
I’ve seen so many women who are unable to stand up for themselves because they’re scared of being fired. If anyone wants to fire me because I made my point, do it. I’ll be glad to leave.
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Publish date : 2024-08-27 09:47:00
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